Discussion:
[OT] What are the thoughts of the community?
(too old to reply)
Slonocode
2003-10-27 20:54:53 UTC
Permalink
I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like quoting,
formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome and
it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments. The
parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the community
as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much if
any support from the community for one side or the other.

So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in the
arguments?

My views are as follows:

On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text using
OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that formats
the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using it.
If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it really
doesn't matter what characters are used.

On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context of
a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the size of
responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the responses
impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see value in
keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very small
portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.


I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
enforced.

Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
under the skin.


My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority of
the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work towards
making that happen.

--Slonocode
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-27 21:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in the
arguments?
IMO the "community" are those people who do _more_ than help. You are
part of the community, if you _enable_ as many people as possible to
take part in the discussion by removing useless text from the messages
and posting in a style that can be interpreted correctly by every
software used to read the group's messages.
Post by Slonocode
prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
forth between different responses
That's why Armin and I always try to include the things which are
_important_ for understanding the messages. Irrelevant parts are skipped
to reduce the size of the message.
Post by Slonocode
I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
categorize as policeman responses.
Fergus has started to call them policemen responses because he doesn't
understand the meaning of these messages. A redirection to an other
group _helps_ the user to find a solution.
Post by Slonocode
Particularly because I have no idea
whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
enforced.
Nobody here trys to enforce laws. Nevertheless, there are certain rules
which make work easier in the groups.

Just my 2 cents.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Mick Doherty
2003-10-27 21:14:40 UTC
Permalink
You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as I see
fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I don't
care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to read my
replies.
Post by Slonocode
I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like quoting,
formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome and
it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
The
Post by Slonocode
parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the community
as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much if
any support from the community for one side or the other.
So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in the
arguments?
On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text using
OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that formats
the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using it.
If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it really
doesn't matter what characters are used.
On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context of
a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the size of
responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the responses
impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see value in
keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very small
portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
enforced.
Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
under the skin.
My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority of
the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work towards
making that happen.
--Slonocode
steve
2003-10-27 21:36:08 UTC
Permalink
who's been beating you up? just curios.

steve


"Mick Doherty" <***@nospam.ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:***@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
| You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as I
see
| fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I don't
| care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to read my
| replies.
|
| "Slonocode" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de...
| > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| quoting,
| > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome
| and
| > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
| The
| > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| community
| > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much
| if
| > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| >
| > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in
| the
| > arguments?
| >
| > My views are as follows:
| >
| > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I
find
| > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text
| using
| > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| formats
| > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using
| it.
| > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it
| really
| > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| >
| > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
actually
| > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response.
Or
| > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
| > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context
| of
| > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
size
| of
| > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
responses
| > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
value
| in
| > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very
| small
| > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| >
| >
| > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
| > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
| > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to
be
| > enforced.
| >
| > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
| > under the skin.
| >
| >
| > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority
of
| > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
towards
| > making that happen.
| >
| > --Slonocode
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-27 22:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steve,

Topic: Please Help: dynamic statement

;-)

Regards,
Fergus
steve
2003-10-27 23:57:24 UTC
Permalink
mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
stone...and the fun just continued.

;^)


"Mick Doherty" <***@nospam.ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:***@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
| You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as I
see
| fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I don't
| care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to read my
| replies.
|
| "Slonocode" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de...
| > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| quoting,
| > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome
| and
| > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
| The
| > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| community
| > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much
| if
| > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| >
| > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in
| the
| > arguments?
| >
| > My views are as follows:
| >
| > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I
find
| > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text
| using
| > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| formats
| > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using
| it.
| > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it
| really
| > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| >
| > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
actually
| > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response.
Or
| > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
| > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context
| of
| > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
size
| of
| > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
responses
| > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
value
| in
| > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very
| small
| > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| >
| >
| > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
| > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
| > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to
be
| > enforced.
| >
| > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
| > under the skin.
| >
| >
| > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority
of
| > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
towards
| > making that happen.
| >
| > --Slonocode
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|
Mick Doherty
2003-10-28 12:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?

In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a previous
thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
intention, but that's how I perceived it.
I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them. If
they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice. If
that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to change.

by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in this
group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)

No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they continue
to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
preferred format).
Post by steve
mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
stone...and the fun just continued.
;^)
| You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as I
see
| fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I don't
| care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to read my
| replies.
|
| > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| quoting,
| > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome
| and
| > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
| The
| > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| community
| > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much
| if
| > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| >
| > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in
| the
| > arguments?
| >
| >
| > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I
find
| > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text
| using
| > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| formats
| > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using
| it.
| > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it
| really
| > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| >
| > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
actually
| > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response.
Or
| > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
| > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context
| of
| > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
size
| of
| > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
responses
| > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
value
| in
| > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very
| small
| > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| >
| >
| > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
| > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
| > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to
be
| > enforced.
| >
| > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
| > under the skin.
| >
| >
| > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority
of
| > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
towards
| > making that happen.
| >
| > --Slonocode
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|
steve
2003-10-28 13:29:19 UTC
Permalink
;^)


oh crap! i did it again! lol

steve


"Mick Doherty" <***@nospam.ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:OB%***@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
| Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?
|
| In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a
previous
| thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
| intention, but that's how I perceived it.
| I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
| them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them.
If
| they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice.
If
| that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to
change.
|
| by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
| message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in
this
| group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)
|
| No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they
continue
| to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
| preferred format).
|
| "steve" <***@abc.com> wrote in message
| news:***@corp.supernews.com...
| > mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
| > stone...and the fun just continued.
| >
| > ;^)
| >
| >
| > "Mick Doherty" <***@nospam.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
| > news:***@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
| > | You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| > | I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as
I
| > see
| > | fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I
don't
| > | care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to
read
| my
| > | replies.
| > |
| > | "Slonocode" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| > | news:bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de...
| > | > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| > | quoting,
| > | > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather
| tiresome
| > | and
| > | > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the
| arguments.
| > | The
| > | > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| > | community
| > | > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen
| much
| > | if
| > | > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| > | >
| > | > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues
raised
| in
| > | the
| > | > arguments?
| > | >
| > | > My views are as follows:
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less.
I
| > find
| > | > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain
text
| > | using
| > | > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| > | formats
| > | > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem
| using
| > | it.
| > | > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then
it
| > | really
| > | > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
| > actually
| > | > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a
response.
| > Or
| > | > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back
| and
| > | > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the
| context
| > | of
| > | > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
| > size
| > | of
| > | > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
| > responses
| > | > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
| > value
| > | in
| > | > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a
very
| > | small
| > | > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I
would
| > | > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no
| idea
| > | > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying
| to
| > be
| > | > enforced.
| > | >
| > | > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to
| get
| > | > under the skin.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the
majority
| > of
| > | > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
| > towards
| > | > making that happen.
| > | >
| > | > --Slonocode
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
Mick Doherty
2003-10-28 13:46:10 UTC
Permalink
LOL

EOT
Post by steve
;^)
oh crap! i did it again! lol
steve
| Good Afternoon. Have you guys been up all night?
|
| In that last OT thread, I'll agree, I did just that. However, in a
previous
| thread I was jumped upon and dictated to. Maybe that was not their
| intention, but that's how I perceived it.
| I will continue to post messages in the form in which I prefer to receive
| them. Anyone who does not like that, has the choice not to download them.
If
| they choose to do so, then they should accept that that is their choice.
If
| that opinion makes me Ignorant then, I'm sorry but, I'm not about to
change.
|
| by the way, did you notice that you included the entire thread in this
| message. That is a serious misconduct that simply won't be tolerated in
this
| group, and the reason for my first OT discussion. ;-)
|
| No hard feelings. I still love everyone in the group and hope they
continue
| to give the quality support they have in the past (even if it's not in my
| preferred format).
|
| > mick...i don't know why you're complaining here...you threw the first
| > stone...and the fun just continued.
| >
| > ;^)
| >
| >
| > | You're right it is becoming Tiresome.
| > | I've been involved Today and have been defending my right to reply as
I
| > see
| > | fit. I reply to messages in the way that I like to recieve them. I
don't
| > | care how anyone else responds, that is their choice. Nobody has to
read
| my
| > | replies.
| > |
| > | > I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
| > | quoting,
| > | > formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather
| tiresome
| > | and
| > | > it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the
| arguments.
| > | The
| > | > parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
| > | community
| > | > as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen
| much
| > | if
| > | > any support from the community for one side or the other.
| > | >
| > | > So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues
raised
| in
| > | the
| > | > arguments?
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less.
I
| > find
| > | > the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain
text
| > | using
| > | > OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
| > | formats
| > | > the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem
| using
| > | it.
| > | > If the majority of the community does not format the messages then
it
| > | really
| > | > doesn't matter what characters are used.
| > | >
| > | > On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I
| > actually
| > | > prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a
response.
| > Or
| > | > at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back
| and
| > | > forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the
| context
| > | of
| > | > a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the
| > size
| > | of
| > | > responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the
| > responses
| > | > impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see
| > value
| > | in
| > | > keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a
very
| > | small
| > | > portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I
would
| > | > categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no
| idea
| > | > whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying
| to
| > be
| > | > enforced.
| > | >
| > | > Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to
| get
| > | > under the skin.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the
majority
| > of
| > | > the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work
| > towards
| > | > making that happen.
| > | >
| > | > --Slonocode
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
Tom Shelton
2003-10-27 21:27:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de>, Slonocode wrote:

<snip>
Post by Slonocode
On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text using
OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that formats
the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using it.
If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it really
doesn't matter what characters are used.
That's fine if your using OE. But you will find that many people,
myself included do not. I used to, but I am now much happier with slrn.
A completly text based news reader. I use it because it is fairly fast,
and it works both on Windows and Linux. Something that is becomming
more important to me.

So, when people use odd ball quoting or don't set their line lengths
properly, it makes for interesting reading :) I don't usually complain,
but having to scroll sideways to read posts can be annoying.

The thing is that over the years, certain things have generally regarded
as standard practice - netiquette. These rules extend beyond this one
news group. Unfortuanetly, OE seems to encourage the breaking of
several of these rules - for instance top posting. Top posting is
considered vile to most users, yet the default placement of responses in
OE is at the top.
Post by Slonocode
On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context of
a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the size of
responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the responses
impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see value in
keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very small
portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
Trimming quotes is indeed the correct behavior. You should remove
anything that does not relevant - yet leave enough to preserve context.
Post by Slonocode
I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
enforced.
I agree. I presonally find it annoying when people violate certain
rules, but I don't usually say anything. Partly because I'm certain
that I on occasion break them myself :)
--
Tom Shelton
MVP [Visual Basic]
steve
2003-10-27 21:35:45 UTC
Permalink
it's all so damn tired! one calling another names!

best advice: be helpful in the way *you* see as providing the most help.
everyone else be damned except the person you're trying to help...they'll
let you know how you can better communicate with them if they don't
understand you. if someone gets on your case, EOT...just don't reply, as
this seems to provoke "master verbation" and leads to threads the length of
which reach from the pacific to the atlantic in a westward direction!

no, two to three squabblers don't a healthy community make...much less,
represent as a whole.

hth,

steve

"Slonocode" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de...
| I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
quoting,
| formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome
and
| it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
The
| parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
community
| as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much
if
| any support from the community for one side or the other.
|
| So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in
the
| arguments?
|
| My views are as follows:
|
| On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
| the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text
using
| OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
formats
| the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using
it.
| If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it
really
| doesn't matter what characters are used.
|
| On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
| prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
| at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
| forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context
of
| a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the size
of
| responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the responses
| impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see value
in
| keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very
small
| portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
|
|
| I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
| categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
| whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
| enforced.
|
| Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
| under the skin.
|
|
| My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority of
| the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work towards
| making that happen.
|
| --Slonocode
|
|
|
|
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-27 22:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
it's all so damn tired! one calling another names!
best advice: be helpful in the way *you* see as providing the most help.
everyone else be damned except the person you're trying to help...they'll
This is a _public_ newsgroup. If you want to communicate with posts
which are unreadable for other people here, turn to email. Don't
annoy other people (I am not referring to you) with posts which are not
useful for part of the community.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-27 22:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi Folks,

I didn't want to say anything but (apart from squashing PLSs)

|| everyone else be damned except the person you're trying to help

is pretty much where my priority lies. I'm here to help. It's a rule for
therapists and it's my rule here - the client comes first (during their time,
of course).

And have fun - that's a secondary priority - otherwise I wouldn't be able
to do this as much as I do. Sorry, if it's OT and irrelevant to the world - I
feel I earn the right to be silly and chatty at times as I put enough in the
rest of the time.

This last few days does not come under that heading, however, and is far
from standard behaviour. For any who haven't seen it in some other thread. I
apologise for my extended 'discussion' with a certain Herfried K. Wagner
[PLS]. and to a lesser extent another discussion which has had a somewhat
disappointing outcome but which I thought. was worth persuing.

From me at least, normal service has been resumed despite <emotional
hiccup> an almost overwhelming desire to cut the PLS to ribbons with my words.
There is little point, however, he is still somewhat delusional and
hypercritical - lashing out his petty remarks at anyone - see several threads
today - "please explain to me why ...". The PLS!! And, apart from this
paragraph, I shall not even use other people's posts and threads to insert
snide remarks. Mainly because I'm not a PLS. </emotional hiccup> EOT on all of
this from me.

Once again. I apologise to all (bar two) for this major disruption.

Regards,
Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-27 22:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
I didn't want to say anything but (apart from squashing PLSs)
Post by steve
everyone else be damned except the person you're trying to help
is pretty much where my priority lies. I'm here to help.
By saying this you say that _you are not here to help_. By disabling
other people from learning from your posts, your help is worthless and
your posts are annoying.
Post by Fergus Cooney
It's a rule for therapists and it's my rule here
We are not a hospital. This is a technical newsgroup.
Post by Fergus Cooney
- the client comes first (during their time,
of course).
Not _the_ client, _all_ people come first. Before your own habits.
Post by Fergus Cooney
And have fun - that's a secondary priority - otherwise I wouldn't be able
to do this as much as I do.
You have fun in insulting other people, not in helping.
Post by Fergus Cooney
This last few days does not come under that heading, however, and is far
from standard behaviour. For any who haven't seen it in some other thread. I
apologise for my extended 'discussion' with a certain Herfried K. Wagner
[PLS].
Just for the information of the other people here:

PLS stands for "Pompous Little Shit".

That's how Fergus cooney thinks about other people here. A shame.
Post by Fergus Cooney
hiccup> an almost overwhelming desire to cut the PLS to ribbons with my words.
There is little point, however, he is still somewhat delusional and
hypercritical - lashing out his petty remarks at anyone - see several threads
today - "please explain to me why ...". The PLS!! And, apart from this
paragraph, I shall not even use other people's posts and threads to insert
snide remarks. Mainly because I'm not a PLS. </emotional hiccup> EOT on all of
this from me.
You are really childish.
Post by Fergus Cooney
Once again. I apologise to all (bar two) for this major disruption.
I expect you to apologize for injuring _me_. As long as you don't
understand that you made a very big mistake, you won't be part of the
community. That's not the style we are talking to each other in this
group.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Tom Leylan
2003-10-27 23:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
By saying this you say that _you are not here to help_. By disabling
other people from learning from your posts, your help is worthless and
your posts are annoying.
Well I didn't want to get involved but this is representative of one major
problem with public newsgroups. Herfried... you're commandering the thread.
It had a subject and you plainly want it to be about some squabble you have
with Fergus Cooney (whoever he might be.) People who can't read English are
"disabled from learning" if we simply carry your point to the extreme.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
We are not a hospital. This is a technical newsgroup.
It is more of a hospital than you are willing to concede. It is a therapy
session to many (I'll guess "most") who participate... that can easily be
discerned by simply reading the postings. Your response wasn't a technical
response was it?
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Not _the_ client, _all_ people come first. Before your own habits.
According to the contract we signed or you decided that anybody who inhabits
the Earth just has to believe this? Take an introspective moment... ask
yourself why you personally think you have this all "right" and others have
it all "wrong."

But let's pursue that train of thought... "all people come first" okay... so
that means uhh? You call them on the phone? You spend 14 hours trying to
formulate a meaningful reply? You... uh... how does our behavior change
since "everybody" comes first? We have a scientific term for this it is
called "impossible."
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Fergus Cooney
And have fun - that's a secondary priority - otherwise I wouldn't be able
to do this as much as I do.
You have fun in insulting other people, not in helping.
Ah... a snappy rhetort. Insulting = "bad" clever response = "good" now
at least we know the rules. :-)
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
PLS stands for "Pompous Little Shit".
Well I'll refrain from comment on this.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
You are really childish.
Don't forget me... I'm childish too :-)
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
I expect you to apologize for injuring _me_. As long as you don't
understand that you made a very big mistake, you won't be part of the
community. That's not the style we are talking to each other in this
group.
I expect you to apologize for injuring me... something tells me that you
will explain to me how I shouldn't be expecting an apology. Do you see the
irony in that at least?
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Herfried... in all seriousness I'll bet you know a heck of alot about .Net
and your heart is in the right place but you really do come off as something
of a dork. Every newsgroup has a "Herfried Wagner" and you're this
newsgroup's "Herfried Wagner."

If you have been assigned here by Microsoft I'd like to know that. If
you've decided on your own by virtue of posting the first message or the
most replies that you are in charge I wouldn't mind knowing that either.

You can also choose to ignore my reply... after I see you and Fergus trade
barbs for a few weeks I'll grow tired of it all an move on in my quest for a
place to "chat" without somebody having to be the King, the "expert" or the
"winner."
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 08:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Leylan
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
By saying this you say that _you are not here to help_. By disabling
other people from learning from your posts, your help is worthless and
your posts are annoying.
Well I didn't want to get involved but this is representative of one major
problem with public newsgroups. Herfried... you're commandering the thread.
It had a subject and you plainly want it to be about some squabble you have
with Fergus Cooney (whoever he might be.) People who can't read English are
"disabled from learning" if we simply carry your point to the extreme.
I am not good in English too, nevertheless I try to give my best. There
are language-specific groups available too.
Post by Tom Leylan
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
We are not a hospital. This is a technical newsgroup.
It is more of a hospital than you are willing to concede. It is a therapy
session to many (I'll guess "most") who participate...
ACK. But some of them will never get cured.
Post by Tom Leylan
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Not _the_ client, _all_ people come first. Before your own habits.
According to the contract we signed or you decided that anybody who inhabits
the Earth just has to believe this? Take an introspective moment... ask
yourself why you personally think you have this all "right" and others have
it all "wrong."
You know what "usenet" means?
Post by Tom Leylan
But let's pursue that train of thought... "all people come first" okay... so
that means uhh? You call them on the phone? You spend 14 hours trying to
formulate a meaningful reply? You... uh... how does our behavior change
since "everybody" comes first? We have a scientific term for this it is
called "impossible."
I try to do that. And sometimes sticking to a netikette can help a lot.
Post by Tom Leylan
Ah... a snappy rhetort. Insulting = "bad" clever response = "good" now
at least we know the rules. :-)
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
PLS stands for "Pompous Little Shit".
Well I'll refrain from comment on this.
That's Fergus Cooney. He doesn't have any friends.
Post by Tom Leylan
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Herfried... in all seriousness I'll bet you know a heck of alot about .Net
and your heart is in the right place but you really do come off as something
of a dork. Every newsgroup has a "Herfried Wagner" and you're this
newsgroup's "Herfried Wagner."
If you have been assigned here by Microsoft I'd like to know that. If
you've decided on your own by virtue of posting the first message or the
most replies that you are in charge I wouldn't mind knowing that either.
I help whenever I have time to do that. I have a lot of time. And I
enjoy working in the groups by _helping all_ people in the groups.
There are other people like Armin, Cor, Jay, and Tom wo enjoy helping
too.

And there are people who enjoy insulting other people.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 05:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Herfried,

I answered one of your latest posts fairly nicely earlier on. You actually
sounded sane in it and we had points in common.

Unfortunately I hadn't downloaded enough messages to get the early ones
and hadn't realised what you've been saying.

Please turn to microsoft.public.nntp.test if you want to continue with the
rubbish. In other words - let's take it outside.

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 11:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
Please turn to microsoft.public.nntp.test if you want to continue with the
rubbish. In other words - let's take it outside.
I don't know what you are talking about. What do you want to take
outside?
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
steve
2003-10-28 00:55:02 UTC
Permalink
herf.

once again, out numbered. i feel for you. and, i'll even go to bat for
you...if you simply change tones for a minute and be willing to see/hear
what everyone else is saying. we all know what the guidelines are and we are
not a bunch of rule breakers...ready to lurch at the chance to do so. had
the debate never started, we'd all be merrily posting/replying all day long
without complaint.

i agree that having settings that allow the most people to view questions
and answers is a desirable thing. but when it comes down to it, if i am
helping someone and they don't want to get a post having attachments ;^)
containing source code, but instead, want me to take off the "wrap
characters...76" so the entire code posts unbroken and avoids having to have
tons of line continuations which kill code legibility...i'll do exactly what
they ask! for its in this instance only, that i know i have ONE person who
will DEFINITELY need and use the code immediately...that's the client! and i
WILL NOT amend my posting format for ALL PEOPLE on the off chance that
someone MAY look at the post and need it as well. that day MAY NEVER come.
so you have to communicate to the person at hand instead of those who may
never exist...and i will do it in the manner in which they perscribe! that
includes the use of personal email.

when that rare occasion has passed, i will then resume my conformance to the
standard netiquette *guideline*. of which i believe you and i and everyone
else for the most part, are in support of. i just get the feeling that its
only the inflexibility in your tone that sends everyone in a rant and not
the guidelines you seek to defend.

you are out numbered AND you have a few good points...don't let them go to
waste or be dismissed by fighting for them! state your case, as i've said
before, and people will discern for themselves what is the most beneficial
solution.

as far as the hospitals are concerned...i can't resist adding: medicine
cures people...if given options, people will take the medicines that don't
come with bitterness or leave after-tastes on the palate. "a spoonful of
sugar".

but that's my EOT. i will discuss this no longer and will not referee any
future bouts...don king has an easier job and he gets paid for his trouble.

steve


"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hirf-spam-me-***@gmx.at> wrote in message news:bnk82e$12igh1$***@ID-208219.news.uni-berlin.de...
| * "Fergus Cooney" <***@post.com> scripsit:
| > I didn't want to say anything but (apart from squashing PLSs)
| >
| >> everyone else be damned except the person you're trying to help
| >
| > is pretty much where my priority lies. I'm here to help.
|
| By saying this you say that _you are not here to help_. By disabling
| other people from learning from your posts, your help is worthless and
| your posts are annoying.
|
| > It's a rule for therapists and it's my rule here
|
| We are not a hospital. This is a technical newsgroup.
|
| > - the client comes first (during their time,
| > of course).
|
| Not _the_ client, _all_ people come first. Before your own habits.
|
| > And have fun - that's a secondary priority - otherwise I wouldn't be
able
| > to do this as much as I do.
|
| You have fun in insulting other people, not in helping.
|
| > This last few days does not come under that heading, however, and is far
| > from standard behaviour. For any who haven't seen it in some other
thread. I
| > apologise for my extended 'discussion' with a certain Herfried K. Wagner
| > [PLS].
|
| Just for the information of the other people here:
|
| PLS stands for "Pompous Little Shit".
|
| That's how Fergus cooney thinks about other people here. A shame.
|
| > hiccup> an almost overwhelming desire to cut the PLS to ribbons with my
words.
| > There is little point, however, he is still somewhat delusional and
| > hypercritical - lashing out his petty remarks at anyone - see several
threads
| > today - "please explain to me why ...". The PLS!! And, apart from this
| > paragraph, I shall not even use other people's posts and threads to
insert
| > snide remarks. Mainly because I'm not a PLS. </emotional hiccup> EOT on
all of
| > this from me.
|
| You are really childish.
|
| > Once again. I apologise to all (bar two) for this major disruption.
|
| I expect you to apologize for injuring _me_. As long as you don't
| understand that you made a very big mistake, you won't be part of the
| community. That's not the style we are talking to each other in this
| group.
|
| --
| Herfried K. Wagner
| MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
| <http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 08:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by steve
they ask! for its in this instance only, that i know i have ONE person who
will DEFINITELY need and use the code immediately...that's the client! and i
WILL NOT amend my posting format for ALL PEOPLE on the off chance that
someone MAY look at the post and need it as well. that day MAY NEVER come.
You didn't understand the meaning of the term "usenet". Everybody helps
everybody. Every post is addressed to _all_ people reading it.
Everybody can learn from it.

EOT
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Armin Zingler
2003-10-27 21:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in the
arguments?
On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain
text using OE.
I'm used to ">" and, in opposite to "|", the software handles it correctly
(but that's my personal problem) when fixing "comb quotes", but I don't
really care about the character. Please note (as you're asking for personal
points of views) that I didn't take part at the "quoting character
discussion".
Post by Slonocode
On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a
response. Or at least as much as is relevant. This saves from
having to go back and forth between different responses in a thread
tree to obtain the context of a response.
I just have to click on the previous post if I need the full previous
message, so it's sufficient to quote the text referred to.
Post by Slonocode
I realize however that I
have a fast connection and the size of responses is of little
consequence to me. Does the size of the responses impact a large
part of this community? If it does then I would see value in keeping
all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very small
portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
IMO, it doesn't matter how many are affected. It's simply unnecessary to
quote text that is not referred to (for the reason given above). Concerning
me: I didn't complain about all these full quotes although they are really a
pain... It was just one reply of mine that lead to the recent discussion.
In addition, not a single fullquote is the problem, but many people read
many groups, and it *does* matter if I download one minute or only 10
seconds. It's not 20% more traffic (a 10:12 relation) we are talking about,
it's the 1:100 relation between useful and useless quotes. Each MB costs!
Post by Slonocode
I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no
idea whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are
trying to be enforced.
In a group there are always people that read many posts and only try to help,
some only read the group, some only write questions and so on. The first category
is usually the one that also points the "newcomers" to some basic "rules",
but I've never called them "policemen"! They always had a sort of
"customary law", so I'm surprised about the reactions in this group.
As somebody who also tries to help as much and good as possible, I also
dared to point some people to something because it's proven to be ok
in the past. BTW, it was never a problem before certain people appeared in this
group.
Post by Slonocode
Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
under the skin.
My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the
majority of the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we
can work towards making that happen.
I wonder why there has to be a discussion at all. Instead of thinking about
the sense of some "rules" and supporting them, some people blame others of
trying to be policemen. I'd appreciate if they would think about it. I
don't understand why we can't come to a common ground *without* being forced.
--
Armin
Cor
2003-10-27 23:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Steve has said the most that I could have said too.

Here are coming persons who are creative, used to work with new ideas and
who want to know why something is done. We do that by evaluating what is
said, what we read, and from the problems from ourselves and others.

That means that the problems and answers have to be well formed. Tom did
that in this thread, by telling that he uses another newsreader and which
problems he had in some situations. That is learning full for me and I think
for more. We can keep an eye on it when we send our next post.

If you are telling that you have problems with sending post, because of the
amount of bytes and than being involved in the longest threads in this
newsgroup make you in my eyes unbelievable.

We try to communicate and I have seen that the most persons her listen the
problems of others. In a good community that is not done to shouting empty
rules.

I have seen the communist community by being in it, and although there were
a lot of good things too in the communist community, this kind of behaviour
was one of the worst.

I think that one of the most important things in a community is to respect
each others meanings and especially if somebody fights very hard for it.

Just my thoughts,

Cor
steve
2003-10-28 00:01:06 UTC
Permalink
"can't we all just get along?" rodney king, circa "after i had gotten the
snot beaten outta me!"

;^)

cheers all.


"Slonocode" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:bnk0mo$10oklh$***@ID-137764.news.uni-berlin.de...
| I keep reading the OT exchanges in this group about things like
quoting,
| formatting and the wording of responses. It has become rather tiresome
and
| it seems to only involve a few parties on either side of the arguments.
The
| parties on either side seem to feel that they are representing the
community
| as a whole. I'm not sure if this is true or not as I have not seen much
if
| any support from the community for one side or the other.
|
| So where does the community as a whole stand on the issues raised in
the
| arguments?
|
| My views are as follows:
|
| On the issue of quoting characters. I could really care less. I find
| the ">" character not very pleasing to the eye when reading plain text
using
| OE. But if the majority of the community is using a newsreader that
formats
| the message based on this quoting character than I have no problem using
it.
| If the majority of the community does not format the messages then it
really
| doesn't matter what characters are used.
|
| On the issue of quoting previous posts within a response. I actually
| prefer having as much of the previous posts as possible in a response. Or
| at least as much as is relevant. This saves from having to go back and
| forth between different responses in a thread tree to obtain the context
of
| a response. I realize however that I have a fast connection and the size
of
| responses is of little consequence to me. Does the size of the responses
| impact a large part of this community? If it does then I would see value
in
| keeping all messages as small as possible. If it only affects a very
small
| portion than those that are affected should learn to live with it.
|
|
| I have also grown tired of reading all the responses that I would
| categorize as policeman responses. Particularly because I have no idea
| whether the community as a whole supports the "Laws" that are trying to be
| enforced.
|
| Equally as tiresome are the posts that break the "Laws" just to get
| under the skin.
|
|
| My hope with this thread is to get a sense of the will of the majority of
| the community. If we can establish that than perhaps we can work towards
| making that happen.
|
| --Slonocode
|
|
|
|
Slonocode
2003-10-28 07:49:49 UTC
Permalink
I downloaded the Free Agent newsreader client to check out the coloring and
formatting options. I must say that it is much easier to read posts in
which the newsreader can color code quotes.

So as for me I will be attempting to follow the "nettiquete" for usenet
posts. I will probably continue to use OE because I simply prefer the feel
and layout. Any chance OE will incorporate color coding?

As far as the bickering and such...it seems pretty obvious that most of the
resistance to follow the "nettiquette" is more a rebellious attitude toward
Herfried and Armin. Rebellious against the sheer number of posts
instructing of the "proper" way and the tone of the posts that do so. While
I'm fairly new to the group I must admit that my initial reaction was to be
completely "put off" by these posts and I found myself immediately wanting
to do just the opposite.

I would encourage everyone to try and follow the "nettiquete" as most of
these guidlines seem to make sense and in general make it easier for most to
read.

I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and try to
understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the community. Try
and understand how the wording and tone of their posts are being perceived
by the rest of the community.

Aside from that I would like to thank Herfried and Armin( and everyone else
in this group ) for taking the time to actually help others on their own
time and for FREE mind you. I have learned a lot about VB and .Net here and
I hope to continue to benefit from their extensive knowledge of the subject
in the future.

Thanks
--Sloncode
Cor
2003-10-28 08:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sloncode,

Sorry that I have to reply, but this goes me something to far.

I hope you do not mean this,
Post by Slonocode
As far as the bickering and such...it seems pretty obvious that most of the
resistance to follow the "nettiquette" is more a rebellious attitude toward
Herfried and Armin.
I hope you use the wrong word, rebellious means that they are in command of
this newsgroup.

I hope that you not have that idea?

Cor
Slonocode
2003-10-28 09:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor
I hope you use the wrong word, rebellious means that they are in command of
this newsgroup.
I hope that you not have that idea?
Cor
Hello Cor,

I understand that they are not in command of this group. But I also see
that it would be easy to believe that to be the case, especially for
newcomers.

As a relative newcomer myself I am only trying to convey what my initial
impressions were. I did for a short time believe that they were the leaders
of this group.

My hope in starting this thread was that the opposing parties might see
input from more members of the community about how they are perceived. And
that this would ultimately lead to some compromises.

--Slonocode
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 09:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
I understand that they are not in command of this group. But I also see
that it would be easy to believe that to be the case, especially for
newcomers.
As a relative newcomer myself I am only trying to convey what my initial
impressions were. I did for a short time believe that they were the leaders
of this group.
My hope in starting this thread was that the opposing parties might see
input from more members of the community about how they are perceived. And
that this would ultimately lead to some compromises.
Although this thread is OT I think it's very important that you have
started it.

When reading all the replies some people mentioned that they _have_
problems accessing certain messages and wold like people to post
messages which stick to the netikette.

I hope the guys who now create non-standard posts will read that and
will improve their posting style so everybody here will benefit.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Cor
2003-10-28 09:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sonocode,

I am glad with this message, because I thought you did make a total covering
conclussion, which it was not in my eyes (And I cannot make it either).

I did try to stop this several times, it is endless and will not lead to
results.

Like in normal live it are two kind of people "the alphas" and the "betas"
and they will never agree to each other. (I am an alpha)

Strange is, that VB.net is more a language for the "alphas" but the "betas"
are the ones who defend it the most.

A pity is that especialy Herfried and Fergus did go on in full harmony till
about 7 days ago. (Fergus did not like the way Armin did behave as a
policeman in past, but Armin did change that in a very positive way in my
eyes). The ones who did play policeman on a brute way did almost all
disapear from this newsgroup.

Please don't pay attention in what I did write in messages about your
opinion before this one, maybe I was to fast in giving that, sorry for that?

:-)

Cor
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 05:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Slonocode,

|| I understand that they are not in command of this group.
|| But I also see that it would be easy to believe that to be
|| the case, especially for newcomers
||
|| As a relative newcomer myself I am only trying to convey
|| what my initial impressions were. I did for a short time
|| believe that they were the leaders of this group.

This is so interesting! A newcomer who is willing to express initial
impressions.

Who is in command - the one who issues commands. Is this what your
impression was?

Leaders in what sense I wonder?

I would love to hear more about these impressions and especially what it
was that gave them to you. This was part of my early experience.

============================
I've only been here about ten weeks. This newsgroup is my first proper
experience of usenet. I didn't even know what 'usenet' meant, though I knew a
bit about newsgroups in general and have used a couple of forums.

After a short while here I made the 'mistake' of posting a message in
Html. A voice responded to me. It said:
"Don't post in Html".

Despite my seniority and confidence, I was new here. A couple of weeks in,
maybe, but still very new - unfamiliar territory and <still> ignorant of what
rules, if any there were. I didn't know that this community was as loose as it
is. I actually thought that there were people in charge. I thought that I was
being sternly told off for some crime. I thought that the person who was
telling me off had the right to do so. Not an 'anyone can express themself'
right but an <official> right. I felt very chastised.

I subsequently found out that that person is just like any of us. He comes
and goes as he pleases. He watches or speaks as he pleases. He is just an
ordinary guy who decided to 'enforce' this rule. He also enforces other rules
with hardly any more grace than show above. No reasoning explained - just an
order.

When I discover that he was nobody special, I felt very angry that he had
spoken to me in that way. I didn't tell him - the moment had passed. But my
respect for him plummeted. Even now, weeks later, he hasn't gained very much
of that back. His words had that much effect on me. And I say again - I have
seniority and confidence. What about those who don't?

I can imagine the youngsters who come here, some fresh out of school, or
still there, or young adults who still hold an awe of authority figures. I
wonder how it must appear to them when, as newcomers, ignorant of any rules,
simply seeking some help, they wander in here and get barked at for some
'misdeed'. Or turned away out of hand?

I believe they get an image, like I did, like Slonocode seems to be
saying, that there are <official authority figures> here. People who are
looking out to ensure that visitors 'behave' themselves. Probably Microsoft
people. As this is a Microsoft newsgroup then surely anyone giving orders must
be from Microsoft - who else would have that authority?

To create an impression of being an authority figure, you must be seen to
act with authority. Issuing directives will do this very nicely. The fact that
any such authority is self-designated is not apparent to a newcomer.

============================

Slonocode, I would be most interested to hear about your experience, and
that of any other relative newcomer (to newsgroups or just this one).

Regards,
Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 08:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
I downloaded the Free Agent newsreader client to check out the coloring and
formatting options. I must say that it is much easier to read posts in
which the newsreader can color code quotes.
So as for me I will be attempting to follow the "nettiquete" for usenet
posts. I will probably continue to use OE because I simply prefer the feel
and layout. Any chance OE will incorporate color coding?
There are several tools available which make life easier, for example
<http://flash.to/oe-quotefix/>.
Post by Slonocode
I would encourage everyone to try and follow the "nettiquete" as most of
these guidlines seem to make sense and in general make it easier for most to
read.
1000% ACK.
Post by Slonocode
I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and try to
understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the community. Try
and understand how the wording and tone of their posts are being perceived
by the rest of the community.
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
Post by Slonocode
Aside from that I would like to thank Herfried and Armin( and everyone else
in this group ) for taking the time to actually help others on their own
time and for FREE mind you. I have learned a lot about VB and .Net here and
I hope to continue to benefit from their extensive knowledge of the subject
in the future.
Thanks!
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Cor
2003-10-28 08:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Herfried,
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
What is the meaning of this?

Cor
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 08:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
What is the meaning of this?
Didn't you read the posts in which Fergus calls me "Popmous Little
Shit"? I never insulted him, I only tried to make him aware of
something he could improve so everybody can benefit from his posts.
He _fighted_ back. I don't understand that. He _doesn't want_ to be
helpful.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Cor
2003-10-28 08:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Herfried,

It was about this, this did include me too.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
But EOT

I saw I misunderstood it.

Cor
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 09:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cor
It was about this, this did include me too.
Sorry, I forgot to mention your name. You are _very friendly_ too.
Post by Cor
But EOT
EOT
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 05:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Herfried,

To the vast majority (ie. 99%+) of visitors and colleagues, I am both
friendly and helpful. An occasional person (ie. <1%) gets strong words from
me.

I do not insult 'others in the group' in the general sense that you imply.

I have insulted <you> - and in a very big way.

The signs are very clear that members of this community are becoming
strongly <dis>interested in your opinion of me.

There is a more appropriate venue for your words against me [see other
posts]. You are invited to respond there instead of here.

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 11:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
I do not insult 'others in the group' in the general sense that you imply.
I have insulted <you> - and in a very big way.
You insulted me in this _public_ group. Everybody could read it.
That's why I expect an excuse to be posted in _this_ group. I am
waiting for it.
Post by Fergus Cooney
The signs are very clear that members of this community are becoming
strongly <dis>interested in your opinion of me.
They are dis-interested in the stuff you post. They expect technical
answers, no discussion about psychology.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
Cor
2003-10-28 08:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Herfried,

Maybe I did read it wrong (I am not so glad with the conclussion from
Slocombe because that does in my eyes not cover the replies but gives his
own opinion) but beside that you know I don't like this.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
Again, please stop with it, Fergus did try that more times than you.

And like you has Fergus a lot of friends in this newsgroup minimum one.

Cor
Slonocode
2003-10-28 09:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
So as for me I will be attempting to follow the "nettiquete" for usenet
posts. I will probably continue to use OE because I simply prefer the feel
and layout. Any chance OE will incorporate color coding?
There are several tools available which make life easier, for example
<http://flash.to/oe-quotefix/>.
Thank you I will try it out.

Herfried, I do not have much more to say on this subject but I want to point
out something here.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and try to
understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the community.
Try
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
and understand how the wording and tone of their posts are being perceived
by the rest of the community.
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
By saying that you are always friendly you completely ignore the fact that
several people(and not just Fergus) have tried to convey to you that
sometimes you don't come across that way.
By not acknowledging that you further reinforce that perception.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
When reading all the replies some people mentioned that they _have_
problems accessing certain messages and wold like people to post
messages which stick to the netikette.
I hope the guys who now create non-standard posts will read that and
will improve their posting style so everybody here will benefit.
Here again you fail to acknowledge that there has been criticism of you
also.
By failing to acknowledge this fact your message loses some credibility.


--Slonocode
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 18:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
Herfried, I do not have much more to say on this subject but I want to point
out something here.
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and try
to
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the community.
Try
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
and understand how the wording and tone of their posts are being
perceived
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
Post by Slonocode
by the rest of the community.
LOL. Armin and I are always friendly, there are other people like
Fergus Cooney who insult other people in the public groups.
By saying that you are always friendly you completely ignore the fact that
several people(and not just Fergus) have tried to convey to you that
sometimes you don't come across that way.
By not acknowledging that you further reinforce that perception.
I am not a native English speaker. I learned German at school and I am
speaking German in Austria. At school we learned that saying "please"
and "thanks" is _friendly_. We didn't learn that calling sombody
"Pompous Little Shit" (like Fergus Cooney does) is frienly.
Post by Slonocode
Post by Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
When reading all the replies some people mentioned that they _have_
problems accessing certain messages and wold like people to post
messages which stick to the netikette.
I hope the guys who now create non-standard posts will read that and
will improve their posting style so everybody here will benefit.
Here again you fail to acknowledge that there has been criticism of you
also.
I think the paragraph above explains the reasons.
Post by Slonocode
By failing to acknowledge this fact your message loses some credibility.
See my comment above.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 00:47:01 UTC
Permalink
I learned the basics in school too. Like all children I was taught most
concepts in a simplified form. As adults we are a long way beyond kindergarten
and have discovered, therefore, many new angles on things that were once very
simple.

The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs. 'Please' and
'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner. And a phrase like 'Pompous
Little Shit' can be said in a friendly way - it just depends, as Cor pointed
out before, on the facial expression (and other body language) and on the tone
of voice.

It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost when
transferred to black and white for they can and do lead to all sorts of
misunderstandings.

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 01:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs. 'Please' and
'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner. And a phrase like 'Pompous
I never used them in this manner. It depends on your interpreation.
Post by Fergus Cooney
Little Shit' can be said in a friendly way
Did you say it in a friendly way?
Post by Fergus Cooney
- it just depends, as Cor pointed
out before, on the facial expression (and other body language) and on the tone
of voice.
I didn't see your face when calling me "Pompous Little Shit". That's
why I interpreted it as an insult. Without the facial expression
"Please" and "Thanks" are "friendly", "Pompous Little Shit" is very
unfriendly.
Post by Fergus Cooney
It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost when
transferred to black and white for they can and do lead to all sorts of
misunderstandings.
ACK. That's the main problem of eletronic text-based communication.
IMO one reason why it doesn't make much sense to write words which are
only understood in the right way with the corresponding facial
expression.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 03:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Hello Herfried,

|| > The most friendly words can be used as the sharpest barbs.
|| > 'Please' and 'thanks' can be used in an authoritative manner.
||
|| I never used them in this manner.

You may not have <intended> to.

|| It depends on your [the listener's] interpreation.

Exactly! Say it one way - it's taken another. <Intentions> exist in the
mind of the person transmitting. Similarly, <interpretations> exist in the
receiver. The transmission protocol, being human, is an extraordinarily
inexact protocol.

An effective communicator is one who has learned how certain styles of
message will be received by different types of people - regardless of the
intentions.

Knowing the varieties of people within the audience is key. A good
communicator will augment the message to <raise the probability> of a good
reception by the widest audience. A poor communicator will blame the audience
for misunderstanding. Failing to take that responsibility is to discard
opportunities to learn because useful evidence will be rejected without fair
evaluation.

|| > It is a shame that these aspects of communication are lost
|| > when transferred to black and white for they can and do
|| > lead to all sorts of misunderstandings.
||
|| ACK. That's the main problem of eletronic text-based
|| communication.
||
|| IMO one reason why it doesn't make much sense to write
|| words which are only understood in the right way with the
|| corresponding facial expression.

Thank you Herfried, that is the <main point> in my argument against terse
redirections!

The more words are used to qualify a message, the more chance there is of
accurate communication. More words make up for loss of voice tone and body
language. An old phrase reversed - 'a thousand words are worth a single
picture'.

|| Without the facial expression "Please" and "Thanks" are "friendly"

Your <own points> stated and expanded on above should tell you that
"'please' and 'thanks <are> friendly"
is an <intention> rather than a statement of fact. These words, like all
others, have to be interpreted within a context. The truth is that they <may>
be taken as friendly, and, of course, they may be taken as <unfriendly>.

It's down to interpretation again. And wishing that it's taken the right
way is useless. For many people, 'please', within a command, adds a mere
veneer of friendliness to the command. For other people it's different. Reach
all or reach a few? Make <them> responsible for reading your mind, or accept
the responsibility of choosing words well?

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 10:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
Thank you Herfried, that is the <main point> in my argument against terse
redirections!
The intention of the redirections is to provide better help to the OP.
I will contunue to use words I find friendly enough.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 05:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Herfried,

microsoft.public.nntp.test is a good place to spout nonsense about me.
Let's take it outside and leave this thread for rational discussion.

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 11:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
microsoft.public.nntp.test is a good place to spout nonsense about me.
Let's take it outside and leave this thread for rational discussion.
Please post _your_ nonsense messages to this group, then I will reply to
them in the group you mentioned. You are starting these discussions.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
Armin Zingler
2003-10-28 11:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Slonocode
I would also encourage Herfried and Armin to calm down a little and
try to understand how they are being perceived by the rest of the
community. Try and understand how the wording and tone of their
posts are being perceived by the rest of the community.
First, I'd like to say that there is still a big difference between Herfried
and me! (sorry Herfried ;-)

Second, I've really no idea why I should calm down. I'm not upset at all.
Could you please show me an example where I chose the wrong tone?

Third, please also turn to those people (I hope this is not interpreted as a
command because it's just a friendly request) that behave like they are
alone in this group. Neither *I* post attachments, nor *I* make fullquotes,
nor *I* abuse this group for OT discussions (apart from those we are
currently talking about) because there are seperate groups for them. Could
you please also tell those people that they also shouldn't direct me how I
have to behave? They are those that start endless discussions (that I try
to avoid now), I only try to react. Before they started writing to
this group, nobody told me what I have to say and how I have to do
it. I also don't understand why *I* am blamed for starting discussions
just because I'm patient in trying to explain why some things make
sense and why they have proven to be sensible in the past years.
If even objective statements are ignored, why don't you criticize those that
ignore them?

Fourth, it's the right of everyone to point people to this and that, so
everybody or better nobody should be called "policeman". Nobody ever claimed
for any exclusive rights, so please (again, it's only a friendly request
(I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know how else I can be as
friendly as possible)) don't limit your critisism only to me and
Herfried. Maybe you just didn't catch who started the discussions so you are
mixing up the cause and the reaction (that's no problem because you said
you are new to this group).



I thought we always should show consideration for other people reading this
group. If most people think that the attitude

"I do post attachments because I
don't care about those that didn't ask for them. There is a better way that
helps everybody, but I don't care. I keep making fullquotes because I don't
care about the bandwith of other people and about the same quotes being
stored and transmitted several times. I also start discussions although
there are seperate groups. I don't care that, once started, this might lead
to more and more OT discussions."

is to be supported, then I really think something is going wrong. I don't
understand it, but it's not a problem because I don't
have to read this group and nobody really needs my help, but I am
surprised that there is such a big difference to the German groups concerning
respect, being open-minded for new suggestions and in dealing with each other.
--
Armin
Cor
2003-10-28 11:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Armin,

It seems I am making the long thread today, sorry, but I want that we have
that good newsgroup what it was till a week ago again.

I promish you that when Fergus calls you a policeman, I will reply him. It
is absolute not true anymore.

And I even believe that Fergus is not talking about Herfried or you as
policeman anymore, now you both are just telling people that there are
better groups for there problems. And you even corrrect Herfried when he
makes mistakes in that.

:-)

Cor
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-28 18:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Armin, Cor,
Post by Cor
It seems I am making the long thread today, sorry, but I want that we have
that good newsgroup what it was till a week ago again.
I promish you that when Fergus calls you a policeman, I will reply him. It
is absolute not true anymore.
And I even believe that Fergus is not talking about Herfried or you as
policeman anymore, now you both are just telling people that there are
better groups for there problems. And you even corrrect Herfried when he
makes mistakes in that.
Full ACK!
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 03:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cor,

I fight hard for an idea and I push, for sure, but my issues can only be
expressed - not demanded (though I'm sure thay sounded like demands at many
points) . I draw a new map and write the guide book, in strong colours and
text. But once I've 'sold' them, it's the journeyman's choice of which route
to follow. And it might be a path that doesn't use the map <or> guide!

I said to Armin that I would be blocking messages from him for a week or
so. I also said that I wouldn't be raising this issue with him again. My last
message to Armin was just that - the last. [On this issue, that is - I'm not
going to withold a ROFL if he cracks a good 'un] ;-)

I have answered Herfried's message in this thread, however, as he raises
points where we seem to have some common ground. If it turns the wrong way,
however, I shall seek for us to take it elsewhere.

Regards,
Fergus
Fergus Cooney
2003-10-29 05:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Herfried,

I mistakenly wrote the above post thinking that we would be able to
converse. Having read your earlier posts I now consider that to be very
unlikely.

FOR THE BENEFIT OF EVERYBODY ELSE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please post your response to this, if you have one, in
microsoft.public.nntp.test

Fergus
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
2003-10-29 10:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fergus Cooney
I mistakenly wrote the above post thinking that we would be able to
converse. Having read your earlier posts I now consider that to be very
unlikely.
FOR THE BENEFIT OF EVERYBODY ELSE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please post your response to this, if you have one, in
microsoft.public.nntp.test
You should have posted your response directly to the group you mentioned
above.
--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Improve your quoting style:
<http://learn.to/quote>
<http://www.plig.net/nnq/nquote.html>
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